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Erwin Waterlander
Op 10/20/2009 10:10 PM, Keith Marshall schreef:
> Vincent,
>
> Please stop top-posting; see http://mingw.org/mailing_lists#toc9
>
>  
This link refers to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting,
which is very interesting. Did you read it lately?

I also don't like top posting, but I think you are fighting a lost case.
I remember the good old days when Elm was the only email client and I
had to manually uudecode attachments. Top posting didn't exist then.
It's very brave to try to educate everybody. There is a whole new
generation that doesn't know any better than to top post. You may not
like it, but it is a fact.

The same with HTML. If you can't handle HTML mails, you must be a
dinosaur. What is plain text? ASCII? CP437? CP1252? ISO-8859-1? UTF-8?
UTF-16? Plain text doesn't exist. Isn't HTML a nice standard, understood
by every modern email client? Even text based Pine client can handle html.

The most important thing of a mailing list is the communication, not the
format.

regards,

Erwin Waterlander


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Re: Top post

Andy Koppe
2009/10/21 Erwin Waterlander:
> What is plain text? ASCII? CP437? CP1252? ISO-8859-1? UTF-8?

Ever heard of email headers?

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="BLAH"

Andy

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Re: Top post

Mads Dyrholm
In reply to this post by Erwin Waterlander
I also don't like top posting, but I think you are fighting a lost case.

It shouldn't be lost! - I personally try to follow the discussions on this list. The only way that a mortal like me can follow is, knock on wood, non-top-postings.

Mads


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Re: Top post

Erwin Waterlander
In reply to this post by Andy Koppe
Op 10/21/2009 10:26 AM, Andy Koppe schreef:
> Ever heard of email headers?
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="BLAH"
>
>  

Of course. And when you still use a CGA monitor with only green text,
things like colour make no sense.
;)

Erwin


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Re: Top post

Erwin Waterlander
In reply to this post by Mads Dyrholm
Op 10/21/2009 10:29 AM, Mads Dyrholm schreef:
>
> It shouldn't be lost! - I personally try to follow the discussions on
> this list. The only way that a mortal like me can follow is, knock on
> wood, non-top-postings.

That's also the way I prefer it. I don't disagree with that top posting
should not be used.

I don't like messages with phrases like "Don't do this, or I ignore
you." I see them too many times. Sometimes you have to accept that
technology is progressing and new people see things differently.

Erwin



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Re: Top post

chrs7777
I happen to be a person who prefers top posted message.  I have my own
reasons that suit me.  Some people like to post messages with no capitol
letters, which I find annoying but I wouldn't dream of insisting that no
such messages appear before my eyes.  I would suggest the person with the
original complaint should be more tolerant (maybe in general).

Regards
Chris Saunders

----- Original Message -----
From: "Erwin Waterlander" <[hidden email]>
To: "MinGW Users List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Mingw-users] Top post


> Op 10/21/2009 10:29 AM, Mads Dyrholm schreef:
>>
>> It shouldn't be lost! - I personally try to follow the discussions on
>> this list. The only way that a mortal like me can follow is, knock on
>> wood, non-top-postings.
>
> That's also the way I prefer it. I don't disagree with that top posting
> should not be used.
>
> I don't like messages with phrases like "Don't do this, or I ignore
> you." I see them too many times. Sometimes you have to accept that
> technology is progressing and new people see things differently.
>
> Erwin
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
> _______________________________________________
> MinGW-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
>
> This list observes the Etiquette found at
> http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
> We ask that you be polite and do the same.
>
> Most annoying abuses are:
> 1) Top posting
> 2) Thread hijacking
> 3) HTML/MIME encoded mail
> 4) Improper quoting
> 5) Improper trimming
> _______________________________________________
> You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users 


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Re: Top post

Erwin Waterlander
In reply to this post by Erwin Waterlander

>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
>
>  

It's hilarious to see that the mailing list is sponsored by BlackBerry.
One of the big promoters of top posting
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting).

:)

Sorry to bother you. I will stop now.

Erwin


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Re: Top post

Frank Hrebabetzky-2
In reply to this post by chrs7777
The worst case is a mixture of top and bottom posting.
So a rule makes sense, no matter which one it is.
--
Frank Hrebabetzky Tel. (48) 3239 2258
Photonita Ltda. http://www.photonita.com.br
Brazil

Chris Saunders wrote:

> I happen to be a person who prefers top posted message.  I have my own
> reasons that suit me.  Some people like to post messages with no capitol
> letters, which I find annoying but I wouldn't dream of insisting that no
> such messages appear before my eyes.  I would suggest the person with the
> original complaint should be more tolerant (maybe in general).
>
> Regards
> Chris Saunders
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Erwin Waterlander" <[hidden email]>
> To: "MinGW Users List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [Mingw-users] Top post
>
>
>> Op 10/21/2009 10:29 AM, Mads Dyrholm schreef:
>>> It shouldn't be lost! - I personally try to follow the discussions on
>>> this list. The only way that a mortal like me can follow is, knock on
>>> wood, non-top-postings.
>> That's also the way I prefer it. I don't disagree with that top posting
>> should not be used.
>>
>> I don't like messages with phrases like "Don't do this, or I ignore
>> you." I see them too many times. Sometimes you have to accept that
>> technology is progressing and new people see things differently.
>>
>> Erwin
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
>> _______________________________________________
>> MinGW-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> This list observes the Etiquette found at
>> http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
>> We ask that you be polite and do the same.
>>
>> Most annoying abuses are:
>> 1) Top posting
>> 2) Thread hijacking
>> 3) HTML/MIME encoded mail
>> 4) Improper quoting
>> 5) Improper trimming
>> _______________________________________________
>> You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users 
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
> _______________________________________________
> MinGW-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
>
> This list observes the Etiquette found at
> http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
> We ask that you be polite and do the same.
>
> Most annoying abuses are:
> 1) Top posting
> 2) Thread hijacking
> 3) HTML/MIME encoded mail
> 4) Improper quoting
> 5) Improper trimming
> _______________________________________________
> You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
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>

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Re: Top post

Earnie-3
In reply to this post by chrs7777
Quoting Chris Saunders <[hidden email]>:

> I happen to be a person who prefers top posted message.  I have my own
> reasons that suit me.  Some people like to post messages with no capitol
> letters, which I find annoying but I wouldn't dream of insisting that no
> such messages appear before my eyes.  I would suggest the person with the
> original complaint should be more tolerant (maybe in general).
>

It isn't polite for you to insist on your preference over this list's  
preferences.  Being impolite in this list is a sure method for the  
moderator to check the box on your account that says moderate.  Please  
be polite and follow this list's mannerisms.

Earnie


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Re: Top post

Earnie-3
In reply to this post by Frank Hrebabetzky-2
Quoting Frank Hrebabetzky <[hidden email]>:

> The worst case is a mixture of top and bottom posting.
> So a rule makes sense, no matter which one it is.

It isn't top vs bottom it is top vs inline.  Inline breaks your  
responses to the original into a more readable format.  It helps when  
you use inline responses when someone finds your post online without  
finding the originals.  They can follow better because of language  
syntax flow.

Earnie


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Re: Top post

chrs7777
In reply to this post by Earnie-3
Are you the moderator of this list?  I have been a member for quite some
time and have seen many top posted messages.  They have not generally been
replied to by a scolding.  My guess is that the majority are not obsessed by
this.

Regards
Chris Saunders

----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Mingw-users] Top post


> Quoting Chris Saunders <[hidden email]>:
>
>> I happen to be a person who prefers top posted message.  I have my own
>> reasons that suit me.  Some people like to post messages with no capitol
>> letters, which I find annoying but I wouldn't dream of insisting that no
>> such messages appear before my eyes.  I would suggest the person with the
>> original complaint should be more tolerant (maybe in general).
>>
>
> It isn't polite for you to insist on your preference over this list's
> preferences.  Being impolite in this list is a sure method for the
> moderator to check the box on your account that says moderate.  Please
> be polite and follow this list's mannerisms.
>
> Earnie
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
> _______________________________________________
> MinGW-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
>
> This list observes the Etiquette found at
> http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
> We ask that you be polite and do the same.
>
> Most annoying abuses are:
> 1) Top posting
> 2) Thread hijacking
> 3) HTML/MIME encoded mail
> 4) Improper quoting
> 5) Improper trimming
> _______________________________________________
> You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
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Re: Top post

Ross Ridge
In reply to this post by Erwin Waterlander
Erwin Waterlander writes:
>I also don't like top posting, but I think you are fighting a lost case.
>I remember the good old days when Elm was the only email client and I
>had to manually uudecode attachments. Top posting didn't exist then.
>It's very brave to try to educate everybody. There is a whole new
>generation that doesn't know any better than to top post. You may not
>like it, but it is a fact.

No, it's not quite like that.  As the Wikipedia article explains, it's
a practice that's very common in private business correspondence, where
it makes a lot of sense.  It's leaked over to certain mailing lists,
but when messages are publically archived it doesn't make as much sense
for every message to contain a complete history of the thread.  For that
reason, top posting non-existent on WWW forums, and that's where most
public discussion happens these days.

>The same with HTML. If you can't handle HTML mails, you must be a
>dinosaur.

If you're using a mailing list, you're a dinosaur anyways.

I don't follow a single mailing list that allows HTML messages.  Allowing
it is technically problematic if you have public archives on the WWW.
Even without archives, it's a potential vector for viruses and other
attacks, so I can't see many public mailing lists allowing it.

>The most important thing of a mailing list is the communication, not the
>format.

Which is why top posting is discouraged, and HTML is prohibitted.  On a
public mailing list like this, they would hinder communication much more
often than not.

                                        Ross Ridge


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Re: Top post

Erwin Waterlander
Op 10/22/2009 06:07 AM, Ross Ridge schreef:
> Which is why top posting is discouraged, and HTML is prohibitted.  On a
> public mailing list like this, they would hinder communication much more
> often than not.
>
>  

It's OK to politely discourage top posting and html, but it should never
be a reason to start ignoring people. Most important is the content and
to help each other.




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Re: Top post

Lloyd Sargent-2
In reply to this post by Ross Ridge
On Oct 21, 2009, at 11:07 PM, Ross Ridge wrote:

> Erwin Waterlander writes:
>
> No, it's not quite like that.  As the Wikipedia article explains, it's
> a practice that's very common in private business correspondence,  
> where
> it makes a lot of sense.  It's leaked over to certain mailing lists,
> but when messages are publically archived it doesn't make as much  
> sense
> for every message to contain a complete history of the thread.  For  
> that
> reason, top posting non-existent on WWW forums, and that's where most
> public discussion happens these days.

Hmmm... your reasoning is flawed.

Most mail in private corporations is kept for archival purposes -  
partially CYA and partially for the reason that after 5 years and  
multiple projects, details get a little fuzzy. Nor, in my opinion,  
does it make any more sense for private mail to contain a archive of  
every previous email (most mail readers ARE smart enough to thread  
topics). However, trying to change private business is difficult.  
Changing business habits is even more difficult.

No, the REAL culprit is, in my opinion, your email client. By  
positioning the cursor at the top (rather than bottom) it has helped  
foster a "top post" culture. Worse, if you were to draw a timeline  
with the top representing a date and the bottom representing a date,  
MOST PEOPLE would choose the top to represent NOW and the bottom to  
represent the PAST (I'm aware that there are some that would do the  
opposite, but they are probably also the same folks that prefer RPN  
calculators :)

 From a human standpoint, you are fighting a losing battle. To call it  
"etiquette" is only what the majority thinks -- when the majority  
begins to top post, it will be the bottom posters who are indeed the  
ones breaking etiquette.

Top-post/bottom-post, I don't care one way or the other. I believe,  
however, the hackers of old (that includes myself, BTW) need to  
realize that in a day and age when we DEPEND on as many people  
contributing to a project, that it is insane to be in any shape, way,  
or form to be exclusionary.

Cheers,

Lloyd

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Re: Top post

Earnie-3
In reply to this post by Ross Ridge
Quoting Ross Ridge <[hidden email]>:

>
> Which is why top posting is discouraged, and HTML is prohibitted.  On a
> public mailing list like this, they would hinder communication much more
> often than not.
>

Well stated Ross.  Thank you for your support.

Earnie


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Re: Top post

Earnie-3
In reply to this post by chrs7777
Quoting Chris Saunders <[hidden email]>:

> Are you the moderator of this list?  I have been a member for quite some
> time and have seen many top posted messages.  They have not generally been
> replied to by a scolding.  My guess is that the majority are not obsessed by
> this.
>

I can be if you force me to be.  I'm one of a few that can moderate  
the list and set your account to be moderated.  Note that the few of  
us who do moderate the list do so rather infrequently so your post  
might sit in queue for a while.  And as for me personally, I've not  
had time to even read the list recently.  Your irreverent tone just  
raised my moderator hair on end.  Either be polite and conform or be  
moderated.

We hope that the trailing characters should be enough for people who  
use a service to follow the desires of the service creators.  If the  
users of the service do not want to follow those desires it is in the  
interest of the service creators to removed the abusers.  But we do  
not wish to cause disparity we wish to to communicate here and be  
prideful in your communication.  This list is public and your current  
or prospective employers can see your communique and your relationship  
to others.  It could influence decisions in your life in other ways  
than a little inconvenience to be conformant.

In the end, it is your decision whether to be conformant with the  
desires of this lists creators.  It is your decision on whether or not  
you want your current employer, prospective employer or prospective  
client to notice your public nonconformity.

Earnie


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Re: Top post

Benjamin Riefenstahl
In reply to this post by Erwin Waterlander
Hi Erwin,

Just a short note.

Erwin Waterlander writes:
> It's OK to politely discourage top posting and html, but it should
> never be a reason to start ignoring people.

You seem to think that people ignore top-posting messages because they
want to be mean.  I myself tend to ignore messages that I don't
understand within a short amount of time.  That happens fairly often
with top-posting messages.  No meanness involved, I just prefer to spend
my time on other things than parsing badly written mails.

benny

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Re: Top post

Erwin Waterlander
Benjamin Riefenstahl schreef:
>
> You seem to think that people ignore top-posting messages because they
> want to be mean.  I myself tend to ignore messages that I don't
> understand within a short amount of time.  That happens fairly often
> with top-posting messages.  No meanness involved, I just prefer to spend
> my time on other things than parsing badly written mails.
>
> benny
>  
Then you must have a hard time at work and communicating with friends.

I think that an average MinGW hacker is intelligent enough to extract
the relevant content. As time passes more newcomers will come with top
posts. There is no way stopping this. One day, when all early Usenet
users are retired, nobody will complain any more. Just be tolerant and
accept that (bearded) rules change over time. Don't threaten people that
they will be ignored.

regards,

--
Erwin Waterlander




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Re: Top post

Benjamin Riefenstahl
Hi Erwin,

> Benjamin Riefenstahl schreef:
>> I myself tend to ignore messages that I don't understand within a
>> short amount of time.

Erwin Waterlander writes:
> Then you must have a hard time at work and communicating with friends.

I am not talking here about work colleages or friends.  In those cases I
will usually pick up the phone or just walk over to their office when
this happens.

I am talking about complete strangers on a mailing list that would like
some input from me about a problem they have.  I can make an effort and
put work into understanding what they might want, more than the effort
that they have put into writing the message.  But usually I won't.  The
way I read a mailing list is this: Skim the messages, see what is
interesting, skip everything that does not interest me or that I do not
immediately understand.  I would be very surprised if this is not how a
lot of people read a mailing list.

> As time passes more newcomers will come with top posts. There is no
> way stopping this.

I personally don't need to stop anybody.  When I find that a mailing
list does not contain enough enjoyable content, I will drop it and find
some other forum.  The internet is a large place and I am sure I will
continue to find stuff that is interesting to me for a long time to
come.

It is different for people that have put effort and their own free time
into a project.  They are understandably annoyed, when the quality of
the mailing list for their project goes down.

benny

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