Archives and 'X'

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
36 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Archives and 'X'

John Emmas
Firstly, please forgive me for not searching the archives but my question is
about 'X' and I figured that such a search would throw up too many replies.

In any case, I couldn't find a way to filter the archives.  This page:-

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum=mingw-users

offers a search bar but is seems to search the whole of Sourceforge
(as opposed to just mingw-users).  Am I missing something?

Anyway, I'm just trying to find out how MinGW handles GTK applications.
Cygwin handles them by emulating X but from what I've read about MinGW, its
aim is to produce native Windows apps, rather than Cygwin's approach which
requires Cygwin support DLL's to be installed on the target machine.

So does a GTK app somehow come out looking like a native Windows app?  Or
does it retain its GTK appearance?  And does MinGW need something akin to an
X server?

Thanks,

John Emmas


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

JonY-2
On 1/29/2009 18:30, John Emmas wrote:

> Firstly, please forgive me for not searching the archives but my question is
> about 'X' and I figured that such a search would throw up too many replies.
>
> In any case, I couldn't find a way to filter the archives.  This page:-
>
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum=mingw-users
>
> offers a search bar but is seems to search the whole of Sourceforge
> (as opposed to just mingw-users).  Am I missing something?
>
> Anyway, I'm just trying to find out how MinGW handles GTK applications.
> Cygwin handles them by emulating X but from what I've read about MinGW, its
> aim is to produce native Windows apps, rather than Cygwin's approach which
> requires Cygwin support DLL's to be installed on the target machine.
>
> So does a GTK app somehow come out looking like a native Windows app?  Or
> does it retain its GTK appearance?  And does MinGW need something akin to an
> X server?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Emmas
>

Hi,
MinGW GTK apps retain their GTK look and feel like their X server
counterpart.

The GTK+ toolkit has many back ends, one of them is Win32, you don't
need an X server for the win32 back end.

Hope that helps.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

John Emmas
----- Original Message -----
From: "JonY"

>
> Hi,
> MinGW GTK apps retain their GTK look and feel like their X server
> counterpart.
>
> The GTK+ toolkit has many back ends, one of them is Win32, you don't
> need an X server for the win32 back end.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
Yes thanks, that's very helpful.  If it's not too cheeky, is there anywhere
where I can download a (reasonably complex) GTK/MinGW app in binary form to
see what it "feels" like.  One of the things I'm most interested in is to
find out how it looks and reacts in a dual-monitor environment.  This is one
area where Cygwin's reliance on 'X' emulation lets it down.  I'm assuming
that MinGW won't suffer from the same problems but it would be interesting
to see for myself.

Thanks again,

John


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

JonY-2
On 1/29/2009 21:20, John Emmas wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JonY"
>> Hi,
>> MinGW GTK apps retain their GTK look and feel like their X server
>> counterpart.
>>
>> The GTK+ toolkit has many back ends, one of them is Win32, you don't
>> need an X server for the win32 back end.
>>
>> Hope that helps.
>>
> Yes thanks, that's very helpful.  If it's not too cheeky, is there anywhere
> where I can download a (reasonably complex) GTK/MinGW app in binary form to
> see what it "feels" like.  One of the things I'm most interested in is to
> find out how it looks and reacts in a dual-monitor environment.  This is one
> area where Cygwin's reliance on 'X' emulation lets it down.  I'm assuming
> that MinGW won't suffer from the same problems but it would be interesting
> to see for myself.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> John

Hi,
They're probably a few canned Windows GTK apps out there, here are a few
I can think of:

Pidgin       <http://www.pidgin.im/>
Wireshark    <http://www.wireshark.org/>
Gimp (Win32) <http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/>

You may need to install the GTK runtime environment, link:
<http://gtk-win.sourceforge.net/home/index.php/en/Home>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

Tor Lillqvist
In reply to this post by John Emmas
> Anyway, I'm just trying to find out how MinGW handles GTK applications.

Well, MinGW doesn't "handle" them, it just can be used to compile
them. Or Visual C can be used.

> Cygwin handles them by emulating X

Cygwin is an operating system "emulator". MinGW is a toolchain. You
can't compare them like this. That said, that GTK on Cygwin uses X is
just a design choice by the people who build it. It would be possible
to build GTK for Cygwin also to use the win32 backend, i.e. use the
GDI API to display and manage the windows and GUI in them.

> So does a GTK app somehow come out looking like a native Windows app?

With "looking", do you mean the visual appearance?

The visual appearance of a GTK app depends on what theme is used, if
any. There is a theme for GTK that is specifically for use on Windows,
which makes the GTK widgets look very much like Microsoft's widgets
(although Microsoft doesn't call them "widgets", but "common controls"
or something like that). To use this theme, put the line

        gtk-theme-name = "ms-windows"

in the etc/gtk-2.0/gtkrc file of the GTK installation. (Or have the
GTK app programmatically cause the same settings to be used.)

But note that this just makes the GTK widgets *look* like the
Microsoft ones. GTK doesn't use Microsoft's widgets. (Except for in
the print dialog on Windows.)

Or do you mean whether GTK apps are "native" Windows binaries that
don't require Cygwin or something like that?

Yes, GTK built for Windows has native normal Windows DLLs that don't
require Cygwin or any other Unix emulation, or any X11 display. They
use the plain old GDI APIs. GTK apps built for Windows are likewise
native Windows executable

> Or does it retain its GTK appearance?

So apparently you are talking about visual appearance here? As I said,
it depens on what theme, if any, are used.

> And does MinGW need something akin to an X server?

MinGW is a toolchain used to compile and link software for Windows. It
has nothing to do with X.

--tml

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

Tor Lillqvist
In reply to this post by John Emmas
> is there anywhere
> where I can download a (reasonably complex) GTK/MinGW app in binary form

The term "GTK/MinGW app" doesn't really mean anything. A GTK app on
Windows consists of one or several Windows executables (exe and dll
files). Once the app is built, there is nothing "MinGW" about it. You
can't see from an executable's behaviour whether it was built with
MinGW or with Microsoft's toolchain. There is no MinGW runtime that
would need to be present (at least not for C code; for C++ code I
think a small MinGW-specific DLL is needed. But GTK does not use C++.)

Now, a Cygwin app is different. It requires the Cygwin runtime when run.

--tml

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

John Emmas
Thanks JonY and Tor,

I wasn't aware that GTK supported different themes but that makes sense now
that I know it (at first I was a bit puzzled by JonY's links because the
screenshots looked pretty much like conventional Windows apps).

Let me just ask a slightly dumb "newbie" question then....  what would be
the reason for building with MinGW rather than (say) Microsoft Visual C++?
Is MinGW better at compiling code that expects to be built in a Posix
environment, for example?

Thanks,

John


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

Tor Lillqvist
> Let me just ask a slightly dumb "newbie" question then....  what would be
> the reason for building with MinGW rather than (say) Microsoft Visual C++?

Because the GTK+ stack itself, and typical Open Source apps that use
GTK+, come with an existing build infrastructure (the configure.in and
Makefile.am files etc that are mangled by various tools to produce a
configure script and Makefiles) that work nicely only with a POSIXish
environment like MSYS and MinGW as the compiler and toolchain. Most
importantly, it is these Makefile.am and configure.in files that are
actively maintained by people who work on the code and commit new
files etc, and always up-to-date.

That said, there are people who maintain Visual Studio project files
for the GTK+ stack, too. GLib has VS project files in its tarballs,
and I think they are up-to-date even. For more of the GTK+ stack, see
this for instance: https://launchpad.net/oah

> Is MinGW better at compiling code that expects to be built in a Posix
> environment, for example?

To some extent, yes, MinGW comes with a small amount of POSIX and/or
C99 compatibility that exceeds that available in Microsoft's compiler.
(One could say that this goes against the "Minimal" part of MinGW's
name, and personally I am not that fond of such extensions, as it
might make it harder to keep code easily compilable with both MinGW
and MSVC.)

But for the GTK+ stack, this doesn't matter: The intent is that the
code shall continue be compilable with Microsoft's compilers, too.

--tml

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

JonY-2
In reply to this post by John Emmas
On 1/29/2009 22:44, John Emmas wrote:

> Thanks JonY and Tor,
>
> I wasn't aware that GTK supported different themes but that makes sense now
> that I know it (at first I was a bit puzzled by JonY's links because the
> screenshots looked pretty much like conventional Windows apps).
>
> Let me just ask a slightly dumb "newbie" question then....  what would be
> the reason for building with MinGW rather than (say) Microsoft Visual C++?
> Is MinGW better at compiling code that expects to be built in a Posix
> environment, for example?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>

Hi,
theoretically speaking, both are linking to Microsoft's C runtime.

In practice, they handle slightly different for C code, mostly in areas
of C99 and compiler specific extensions. So depending on the coding
standards and portability policies of a software project, it might work
with both, or 1 of them only.

For C++, they both use different ABIs, lots of things can go wrong if
you mix the code from different compilers.

Recent versions of GTK+-2 for example supports building with MinGW, but
not with Visual C++. Projects like OpenSSL and cURL, will works with both.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

John Emmas
----- Original Message -----
From: "JonY"
>
> Recent versions of GTK+-2 for example supports building with MinGW, but
> not with Visual C++. Projects like OpenSSL and cURL, will works with both.
>
Okay, let me ask another question that might seem dumb to you guys.  Cygwin
comes with the equivalent of a "package manager" which can be used to
install various common Linux libraries that have been pre-built in a
"cygwin-ised" form.  So for example I could install libxml2 or libraptor or
libboost etc.

I took a look at the MinGW site but I could only find a small number of
packages relating to MinGW itself.  So what if I wanted to build a
particular open source project that relies on some standard Linux libraries
(let's say, libraptor and libxml2).  Would I be able to install libraptor
and libxml2 binaries from a repository somewhere or would I need to obtain
the source and build it using MinGW?

John


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

JonY-2
On 1/30/2009 01:32, John Emmas wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JonY"
>> Recent versions of GTK+-2 for example supports building with MinGW, but
>> not with Visual C++. Projects like OpenSSL and cURL, will works with both.
>>
> Okay, let me ask another question that might seem dumb to you guys.  Cygwin
> comes with the equivalent of a "package manager" which can be used to
> install various common Linux libraries that have been pre-built in a
> "cygwin-ised" form.  So for example I could install libxml2 or libraptor or
> libboost etc.
>
> I took a look at the MinGW site but I could only find a small number of
> packages relating to MinGW itself.  So what if I wanted to build a
> particular open source project that relies on some standard Linux libraries
> (let's say, libraptor and libxml2).  Would I be able to install libraptor
> and libxml2 binaries from a repository somewhere or would I need to obtain
> the source and build it using MinGW?
>

Hi,
currently no, there are no official repositories. You will need to
manually compile and build it from source yourself.

There was some talk about a package manager sometime, not too sure what
became of it though.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

Tor Lillqvist
>> So what if I wanted to build a
>> particular open source project that relies on some standard Linux libraries
>> (let's say, libraptor and libxml2).  Would I be able to install libraptor
>> and libxml2 binaries from a repository somewhere or would I need to obtain
>> the source and build it using MinGW?

> currently no, there are no official repositories. You will need to
> manually compile and build it from source yourself.

Never heard of libraptor. But for libxml2, actually, there *is* an
"official" Windows binary package. "Official" in the sense that it is
linked to from "the horse's mouth" so to say... www.libxml.org ->
http://www.xmlsoft.org/downloads.html ->
http://www.zlatkovic.com/libxml.en.html ->
http://www.zlatkovic.com/pub/libxml/

That doesn't mean that everybody would be (re-)distributing exactly
these binaries for Win32, of course. Typically people who build and
distribute something larger on Win32 that depends on libxml2 have some
good reason to either just repackage zlatkovic's packages (not
recompile, but picke and split up what is in the zlatkovic zip files
into different zip files or installers), or build libxml2 themselves
from scratch.

But then, so do Linux distros. Every distro recompiles each package
from sources. So in a sense one could say that each installer for some
software on Windows that includes a stack of common libraries is
comparable to a different Linux distro.

(Another similar case to libxml2 is zlib, where there is also one very
"official" Win32 DLL right at the zlib.net site. Still there are many
differently compiled zlib DLLs floating around.)

--tml

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

JonY-2
On 1/30/2009 03:30, Tor Lillqvist wrote:

>>> So what if I wanted to build a
>>> particular open source project that relies on some standard Linux libraries
>>> (let's say, libraptor and libxml2).  Would I be able to install libraptor
>>> and libxml2 binaries from a repository somewhere or would I need to obtain
>>> the source and build it using MinGW?
>
>> currently no, there are no official repositories. You will need to
>> manually compile and build it from source yourself.
>
> Never heard of libraptor. But for libxml2, actually, there *is* an
> "official" Windows binary package. "Official" in the sense that it is
> linked to from "the horse's mouth" so to say... www.libxml.org ->
> http://www.xmlsoft.org/downloads.html ->
> http://www.zlatkovic.com/libxml.en.html ->
> http://www.zlatkovic.com/pub/libxml/
>

Hi,
you're right, I thought John was referring to something like apt package
manager for Debian.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

John Emmas
----- Original Message -----
From: "JonY"
Subject: Re: [Mingw-users] Archives and 'X'
>
> Hi,
> you're right, I thought John was referring to something like apt package
> manager for Debian.
>
Actually, I did mean that - but it's good to know about the other options.
One thing I found very interesting in this thread was this:-


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tor Lillqvist"

>
> Because the GTK+ stack itself, and typical Open Source apps that use
> GTK+, come with an existing build infrastructure (the configure.in and
> Makefile.am files etc that are mangled by various tools to produce a
> configure script and Makefiles) that work nicely only with a POSIXish
> environment like MSYS and MinGW as the compiler and toolchain. Most
> importantly, it is these Makefile.am and configure.in files that are
> actively maintained by people who work on the code and commit new
> files etc, and always up-to-date
>
How reliable is the "configure" and "make" build model under MinGW?  I'm
only asking because this is an area that I've found very hit-and-miss in
Cygwin.  Both the configuration files and makefiles often need to be
"cygwin-ised" (i.e. patched) before they can be built and this is usually
done by a "cygport" utility.  The downside is that unless you're quite
expert with Cygwin, the quickest option to getting something built is
usually to wait until one of the experts builds it.  Sometimes "configure"
and "make" just work "right out of the box" but equally as often, they
don't.  Is that also the case for MinGW?

Let me say that I'm not criticising Cygwin in that respect.  There's a
movement called "Cygwin-Ports" who are remarkably good at addng things to
Cygwin's repertoire.  However, their time is obviously limited.

John

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

Tor Lillqvist
> How reliable is the "configure" and "make" build model under MinGW?

Well, "make" as such is very reliable. It's the configury that
generates Makefiles and config.h files etc that usually is tricky.

It depends very much on how well the configure.in and Makefile.am
files have been written for some particular software package.
Unfortunately writing configure.in and Makefile.am files that work
well both on Linux, other Unixes, in MSYS with MinGW, and for
cross-compilation for instance from Linux (using mingw cross tools) to
Win32, is not easy. There are too many liberties left to the
developer;) And some developers get some things completely wrong, like
having "make install" install headers that #include "config.h".

Then there is libtool which has some very spectacular failure modes
with interesting error messages.

But once you have something that works well, it usually keeps on
working well from version to version if only trivial changes, like
adding new source files to some executable or library, adding a new
library, etc are done. In the GTK+ stack that this thread initially
mentioned this holds. (Except that one often has to trick around some
libtool misfeatures. The build scripts are included in the developer
packages of the GTK+ stack on ftp.gnome.org, in them you can see such
tricks.)

Some people say CMake is a much better alternative to autotools,
libtool and Make. Other say CMake stinks;) And then there are things
like SCons that I know nothing about.

Yeah, it would be really great if there existed a nice and elegant
tool, running on all kinds of Unix, Windows and MacOSX, without any
"extra" requirements (like a Bourne-style shell, sed, awk, perl etc)
that would supersede all of autofoo, libtool and make. Maybe such a
tool even exists. But who could convince most maintainers of Open
Source software to switch to this one tool to rule them all? It would
be a very big task. Consider that Makefile(,am) files after all can
contain arbitrary shell commands in the rules. How should a
hypothetical über-tool do things that now use some complex shell
command that invokes sed or awk?

> The downside is that unless you're quite
> expert with Cygwin, the quickest option to getting something built is
> usually to wait until one of the experts builds it.

The same holds for Win32 and MinGW, to an even higher degree. But even
"the experts" have not been experts since birth. It just takes some
effort and enthusiasm to learn this stuff...

> Sometimes "configure"
> and "make" just work "right out of the box" but equally as often, they
> don't.  Is that also the case for MinGW?

Certainly yes. And as Windows is not Unix (unlike Cygwin, which very
much tries to look and feel like Unix), much software can't even in
theory be compiled for Windows, as the code uses Unix-only APIs,
fork() being perhaps the most glaring example.

--tml

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

Earnie Boyd
In reply to this post by John Emmas

Quoting John Emmas <[hidden email]>:

> How reliable is the "configure" and "make" build model under MinGW?  I'm
> only asking because this is an area that I've found very hit-and-miss in
> Cygwin.  Both the configuration files and makefiles often need to be
> "cygwin-ised" (i.e. patched) before they can be built and this is usually
> done by a "cygport" utility.  The downside is that unless you're quite
> expert with Cygwin, the quickest option to getting something built is
> usually to wait until one of the experts builds it.  Sometimes "configure"
> and "make" just work "right out of the box" but equally as often, they
> don't.  Is that also the case for MinGW?
>

You might have to tweak the source here and there but the configure
process isn't changed.  We have an unreleased portmaker package you can
find in CVS http://mingw.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/mingw/portmaker/.  
A mingwPORT, we call it, creates a mingwport directory with scripts and
the patch.  It requires wget to be present to as well as MSYS.  The
scripts downloads the pristine file or asks the user where to find the
file, extracts the file, applies the prepared patch, asks some
configure questions, and executes configure and make.  The mingwPORT
releases in the FRS then contain just the contents of the mingwport/
directory.

However, the packages released as a whole do not require anything
special other than following the packaging name requirements.

Earnie

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Archives and 'X'

Earnie Boyd
In reply to this post by John Emmas

Quoting John Emmas <[hidden email]>:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JonY"
>>
>> Recent versions of GTK+-2 for example supports building with MinGW, but
>> not with Visual C++. Projects like OpenSSL and cURL, will works with both.
>>
> Okay, let me ask another question that might seem dumb to you guys.  Cygwin
> comes with the equivalent of a "package manager" which can be used to
> install various common Linux libraries that have been pre-built in a
> "cygwin-ised" form.  So for example I could install libxml2 or libraptor or
> libboost etc.
>
> I took a look at the MinGW site but I could only find a small number of
> packages relating to MinGW itself.  So what if I wanted to build a
> particular open source project that relies on some standard Linux libraries
> (let's say, libraptor and libxml2).  Would I be able to install libraptor
> and libxml2 binaries from a repository somewhere or would I need to obtain
> the source and build it using MinGW?
>

I've seen the other responses to this but here is my take on this.  I
want to be sure that the library binaries meet the same ABI for the
compiler/linker that I use.  Therefore, I always build libraries from
scratch.  Using other ppl's builds may cause you unware problems just
because the library was built with a different compiler.

Earnie

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: MinGW vs Microsoft: [WAS: Archives and 'X']

Earnie Boyd
In reply to this post by John Emmas

Quoting John Emmas <[hidden email]>:

>
> Let me just ask a slightly dumb "newbie" question then....  what would be
> the reason for building with MinGW rather than (say) Microsoft Visual C++?
> Is MinGW better at compiling code that expects to be built in a Posix
> environment, for example?
>

MinGW compilers are Open Source.
MinGW extends the C runtime with some emulated POSIX functions.
MinGW extends the C runtime for C99 compatibility.
MinGW runtime source is distributable.
MinGW windows API source is distributable.
MinGW runtime and windows API is incomplete but contains the routines
important enough for others to add patches.
MinGW does not have its own pretty visual IDE but can be used with many IDE.
MinGW compilers can use Microsoft's complete runtime and windows API;
they don't have to use the MinGW runtime.

Microsoft compilers are Closed Source.
Microsoft runtime and windows API are not distributable.
Microsoft runtime and windows API are complete.
Microsoft compilers can only use the Microsoft runtime.
Microsoft provides its own visual IDE.

If others can think of things to add, please do.

Earnie

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: MinGW vs Microsoft: [WAS: Archives and 'X']

Xavier Miller
Visual C++ Debugger is better than GDB.

We are friday, can I ? ;)

Earnie Boyd a écrit :

> Quoting John Emmas <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Let me just ask a slightly dumb "newbie" question then....  what would be
>> the reason for building with MinGW rather than (say) Microsoft Visual C++?
>> Is MinGW better at compiling code that expects to be built in a Posix
>> environment, for example?
>>
>
> MinGW compilers are Open Source.
> MinGW extends the C runtime with some emulated POSIX functions.
> MinGW extends the C runtime for C99 compatibility.
> MinGW runtime source is distributable.
> MinGW windows API source is distributable.
> MinGW runtime and windows API is incomplete but contains the routines
> important enough for others to add patches.
> MinGW does not have its own pretty visual IDE but can be used with many IDE.
> MinGW compilers can use Microsoft's complete runtime and windows API;
> they don't have to use the MinGW runtime.
>
> Microsoft compilers are Closed Source.
> Microsoft runtime and windows API are not distributable.
> Microsoft runtime and windows API are complete.
> Microsoft compilers can only use the Microsoft runtime.
> Microsoft provides its own visual IDE.
>
> If others can think of things to add, please do.
>
> Earnie
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by:
> SourcForge Community
> SourceForge wants to tell your story.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
> _______________________________________________
> MinGW-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
>
> You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> This list observes the Etiquette found at
> http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
> We ask that you be polite and do the same.
>
> Most annoying abuses are:
> 1) Top posting
> 2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
> 3) Improper quoting
> 4) Improper trimming

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: MinGW vs Microsoft: [WAS: Archives and 'X']

Kai Tietz
In reply to this post by Earnie Boyd
Earnie Boyd <[hidden email]> wrote on 30.01.2009 14:20:04:

>
> Quoting John Emmas <[hidden email]>:
>
> >
> > Let me just ask a slightly dumb "newbie" question then....  what would
be
> > the reason for building with MinGW rather than (say) Microsoft Visual
C++?

> > Is MinGW better at compiling code that expects to be built in a Posix
> > environment, for example?
> >
>
> MinGW compilers are Open Source.
> MinGW extends the C runtime with some emulated POSIX functions.
> MinGW extends the C runtime for C99 compatibility.
> MinGW runtime source is distributable.
> MinGW windows API source is distributable.
> MinGW runtime and windows API is incomplete but contains the routines
> important enough for others to add patches.
> MinGW does not have its own pretty visual IDE but can be used with many
IDE.

> MinGW compilers can use Microsoft's complete runtime and windows API;
> they don't have to use the MinGW runtime.
>
> Microsoft compilers are Closed Source.
> Microsoft runtime and windows API are not distributable.
> Microsoft runtime and windows API are complete.
> Microsoft compilers can only use the Microsoft runtime.
> Microsoft provides its own visual IDE.
>
> If others can think of things to add, please do.
>
> Earnie

One of the most important points is missing IMHO
Mingw can be used as cross-compiler, so you have one build environment for
different targets.

Also (this is just true for 64-bits and is mostly related to gcc itself),
we are producing faster code as the MS C13.

Kai

|  (\_/)  This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
| (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
| (")_(") world domination.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:
SourcForge Community
SourceForge wants to tell your story.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
_______________________________________________
MinGW-users mailing list
[hidden email]

You may change your MinGW Account Options or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mingw-users

_______________________________________________
This list observes the Etiquette found at
http://www.mingw.org/Mailing_Lists.
We ask that you be polite and do the same.

Most annoying abuses are:
1) Top posting
2) HTML/MIME encoded mail
3) Improper quoting
4) Improper trimming
12